Popdose: Political Culture: When Did Americans Become Such Pussies?
EightE1
· 5 months ago
Supermax prisons are where we incarcerate dangerous Americans who kill Americans. I see no reason why dangerous non-Americans who have killed Americans (or who we suspect of other like offenses) could not be incarcerated in the same facilities. Guantanamo is more than a detention center; it is a symbol throughout the world for Bush-era disregard for our Constitution and the rule of law. It must be shut down, for that reason. Our federal law enforcement mechanisms can deal with these people; those who don't want Guantanamo detainees "in our back yard" are merely playing political games.
David
· 5 months ago
Speaking of torture, a 60 year old Briton kidnapped in North Africa (doing something as bad as attending a music festival) has been murdered, reportedly beheaded by al Qaeda terrorists. Maybe the evil U.S. could learn something about this.....at least he wasn't waterboaded first; that would have been worse.
JonCummings
· 5 months ago
Well, by all means, then, let's continue sinking to al Qaeda's level--which is precisely what the Bush administration did. That half-an-argument ("but they just beheaded someone!") lost all credibility years ago.
David
· 5 months ago
So douche, I didn't realize waterboarding (which did provide us valuable information and saved lives; while killing no one) is sinking to al-Queda's level of beheading someone. And you are wrong, it''s NOT precisely what the Bush Administration did. Get your fucking facts right.
JonCummings
· 5 months ago
Oh, sorry, forgot that exact precision is the stock and trade of Bush defenders. No, we didn't behead anyone--far as I know--but let's not forget that prisoners died from our torture at Abu Ghraib and Bagram, and probably elsewhere that we haven't been told about yet. Point is, our level of humanity is supposed to be waaaaaaay above beheading, murder-by-torture or even plain ol' waterboarding (or the other forms of torture and abuse approved and implemented by the Bush Administration). And if you don't think so, you'll never convince me that the problem isn't you.
I don't give a good goddamn whether waterboarding provided useful information. It's unconstitutional in this country, and illegal worldwide. The "but it worked" excuse is a "Mussolini made the trains run on time" defense. I hope someday the Bushies get to tell that to the International Criminal Court.
jefito
· 5 months ago
Facts? What do you know about facts? Numerous intelligence personnel -- you know, people with actual security clearance who have done REAL life-saving, intelligence-gathering work -- have repudiated these "techniques" as utterly worthless. The only people still supporting them are belligerent idiots who have never contributed anything to the preservation or growth of democracy. People like Dick Cheney and, apparently, you.
Arend_Anton
· 5 months ago
Duh, Jeff. He obviously knows his facts, or he wouldn't have resorted to referring to Jon as, "Douche."
JonCummings
· 5 months ago
You know, I was going to ridicule the name-calling...until I remembered that I headlined this column by calling an entire nation a bunch of pussies. So I'm not exactly holding the moral high ground on that one.
Arend_Anton
· 5 months ago
Not really. You were trying to call us pussies to action.
He was just resorting to name calling.
Doodle Dandy
· 5 months ago
In the case of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the information was very valuable, particularly names and addresses of people who were involved with al Qaeda in this country and in Europe. And in one particular plot, which would involve an airline attack on the tallest building in Los Angeles, known as the Library Tower.
KSM's capture and waterboarding occurred in 2003, whereas the Bush administration (including Bush himself, in a 2006 speech) repeatedly claimed that they had foiled the Library Tower plot the year before, in 2002. Other independent investigations have found that if a plot against the Library Tower actually existed at all, it was in its infancy, with no resources and no timeline--in other words, hardly the type of imminent threat that could justify waterboarding if ANYTHING could ever justify it.
The reporting of ABC's Brian Ross, who "broke" the story of KSM's supposedly valuable information, has been shredded in numerous places. BTW, I like the idea that KSM had American addresses in his head ready to be recited, particularly after he was waterboarded 183 times! Where did they make this stuff up?
DwDunphy
· 5 months ago
The majority of reports on what information was gained from waterboarding indicates the subjects lied to stop the waterboarding.
StandingDamaged
· 5 months ago
Did you know one of the reasons Tecumseh was considered such a great man is because he halted the age old practise of torturing captives that had been common among us eastern woodlander natives? It was one of the many reasons the euro-invaders considered him a great man. They saw it as prrof of his being more civilized than the 'savages' they were continually raging about and using as justification for their continual genocide. So I guess now America has slid into the savagery that makes them justifiably worthy of genocide themselves? And again - wasn't one of McSames' political selling points during the beginnings of his campaign the fact that he had been a 'tortured prisoner of war'? So MAYBE the puiblic AND the Republicans are simply afraid that bringing those Gitmo guys here would mean we would have to run them for the highest office in 2012? hehehehe on a final note - who knew that what Oatrick Henry REALLy said was "give me Liberty, or at least promise you won't hit me too hard...."
Arend_Anton
· 5 months ago
Not to stray too far from the point, but that Brian Williams special was awful. Jon Stewart pointed out how similar it was to an MTV Cribs episode. It Obama and his staffers look like the idiots I know they aren't (well, other than Geithner and possibly Rahm), thanks to someone's idea of "edgy" cutting. It's amazing how much editing can distort things.
Larry Fine
· 5 months ago
I just love it when liberals show their hatred for America.
JonCummings
· 5 months ago
Hey, buddy, in case you haven't noticed, we're in CHARGE of America now!!!! And I LOVE that! Take a look around--all the hatred is coming from your direction. And it's not constructive criticism of government policy, the way ours was for eight years. It's just blind, grotesque, spitting vitriol.
Moe Howard
· 5 months ago
"And it's not constructive criticism of government policy, the way ours was for eight years. "
You're fucking kidding me, right? ALLof it was constructive criticism? I could do a search for the compassionate, constructive criticism by the Left during the Bush years, but I'm really too bored to make the attempt. I do love riling up Libs.
JonCummings
· 5 months ago
Really, you flatter yourself. We're too busy laughing to get riled up.
Leona
· 5 months ago
You DO flatter yourself, "Moe" and "Larry." Anyone is likely to get "riled" when confronted with nonsense by somebody who has absolutely no intention of listening to reason.
By the way: based on your minimal level of personal awesomeness, I would rank you more as a Curly-Joe DeRita.
Arend Anton
· 5 months ago
You mean like when Rush Limbaugh says he hopes the President fails?
DwDunphy
· 5 months ago
I don't hate America. I hate that we've forsaken our principles to reject the Geneva Convention.
Bob
· 5 months ago
The writer should be thankful that he's being challenged on his stupid opinion. At least he's getting some comments for a change. Unlike his usual single digit replies to his "I hate America and all Republicans are bad" columns.
jefito
· 5 months ago
If Jon's opinion is really so stupid, it should be easy enough to actually challenge it, instead of just blowing hot air. Why don't you give it a try, Bob?
JonCummings
· 5 months ago
Don't be so hard on Bob. I think it's sweet that he cares enough to follow the comment figures on my columns. And yeah, Bob, I am thankful that I'm being challenged. Though I hope there's more in the tank than "liberals hate America." Because that's too easy, not to mention patently incorrect.
Ted
· 5 months ago
Probably because it's easier to hide behind pseudonyms like "Doodle Dandy" "Larry Fine" "Moe Howard" and "Bob" -- and throw virtual rocks -- than actually engage in a substantive dialogue on Jon's post.
DwDunphy
· 5 months ago
The US broke the Geneva Convention, the thing US soldiers have relied upon for decades when faced with capture. You say then that we're dealing with a different enemy, one that hates us just for being us, and the very real possibility of bombing and beheading begs a different tack. Understood.
But how are we to get people from those countries that threaten us to consider our way of life a possibility, enticing enough to change the internal politics, worth a noble effort even, if we cannot even respect the Geneva Convention? The "war on terror" cannot be won from the outside. We can't find Osama Bin Laden. Guess what? We never will, no matter how many Muslims we fake-drown, especially if the only "valuable information" we get from them is that he's down the street at Denny's ordering a Moon Over My Hammy. Most reports conclude that valuable information we thought we had was no more credible than Curveball's first volley of reportage. We know how well that worked out.
You are entitled to your opinion, just as Jon is. But the numbers, the hard numbers, indicate the full frontal assault has produced nothing in the way of intel or extra protection. If we are to really win the "war on terror" we have to present ourselves as a better, more noble ideal. Only then would those inside Iran, Pakhistan and Afghanistan even bother to consider defying their oppressors, the poppy guards that enforce religious fanaticism on their people, all the while bodyguarding opium and heroin farms. Only those people, once instilled with a role model worth following, know where Bin Laden is and, ultimately, only they will deal with him. We can preach all we want, but if our deeds betray our words, all the opposition's propaganda about us being bloodthirsty liars is but a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Arend Anton
· 5 months ago
I would hope that our interrogators are smart enough to realize that a Muslim Jihadist would never order a "Moon Over My Hammy" anyway.
DwDunphy
· 5 months ago
Are you kidding? For a minute they almost bought into Sheik Khalid saying he was Bigfoot.
Arend_Anton
· 5 months ago
Have you seen his picture? I'd almost believe that myself.
Molly
· 5 months ago
hey douche, this is really well written. nice job.
Arend_Anton
· 5 months ago
I hereby christen Jon with the new nickname, "Douche."
All Comments
I don't give a good goddamn whether waterboarding provided useful information. It's unconstitutional in this country, and illegal worldwide. The "but it worked" excuse is a "Mussolini made the trains run on time" defense. I hope someday the Bushies get to tell that to the International Criminal Court.
He was just resorting to name calling.
or here: http://waterboarding.org/success_story
(yes, there's a waterboarding.org!)
KSM's capture and waterboarding occurred in 2003, whereas the Bush administration (including Bush himself, in a 2006 speech) repeatedly claimed that they had foiled the Library Tower plot the year before, in 2002. Other independent investigations have found that if a plot against the Library Tower actually existed at all, it was in its infancy, with no resources and no timeline--in other words, hardly the type of imminent threat that could justify waterboarding if ANYTHING could ever justify it.
The reporting of ABC's Brian Ross, who "broke" the story of KSM's supposedly valuable information, has been shredded in numerous places. BTW, I like the idea that KSM had American addresses in his head ready to be recited, particularly after he was waterboarded 183 times! Where did they make this stuff up?
And again - wasn't one of McSames' political selling points during the beginnings of his campaign the fact that he had been a 'tortured prisoner of war'? So MAYBE the puiblic AND the Republicans are simply afraid that bringing those Gitmo guys here would mean we would have to run them for the highest office in 2012? hehehehe
on a final note - who knew that what Oatrick Henry REALLy said was "give me Liberty, or at least promise you won't hit me too hard...."
You're fucking kidding me, right? ALLof it was constructive criticism? I could do a search for the compassionate, constructive criticism by the Left during the Bush years, but I'm really too bored to make the attempt. I do love riling up Libs.
By the way: based on your minimal level of personal awesomeness, I would rank you more as a Curly-Joe DeRita.
But how are we to get people from those countries that threaten us to consider our way of life a possibility, enticing enough to change the internal politics, worth a noble effort even, if we cannot even respect the Geneva Convention? The "war on terror" cannot be won from the outside. We can't find Osama Bin Laden. Guess what? We never will, no matter how many Muslims we fake-drown, especially if the only "valuable information" we get from them is that he's down the street at Denny's ordering a Moon Over My Hammy. Most reports conclude that valuable information we thought we had was no more credible than Curveball's first volley of reportage. We know how well that worked out.
You are entitled to your opinion, just as Jon is. But the numbers, the hard numbers, indicate the full frontal assault has produced nothing in the way of intel or extra protection. If we are to really win the "war on terror" we have to present ourselves as a better, more noble ideal. Only then would those inside Iran, Pakhistan and Afghanistan even bother to consider defying their oppressors, the poppy guards that enforce religious fanaticism on their people, all the while bodyguarding opium and heroin farms. Only those people, once instilled with a role model worth following, know where Bin Laden is and, ultimately, only they will deal with him. We can preach all we want, but if our deeds betray our words, all the opposition's propaganda about us being bloodthirsty liars is but a self-fulfilling prophecy.